Hi John, I've never commented before but liked your take on Rebecca Yarros. I read the first inthe series, and frankly, won't waste my time on the rest. I felt it was an amalgamation of Harry Potter, Hunger Games, suddenly turning into 50 Shades of Gray. I'm Glad I didn't make the mistake of recommending the series to my 11 year old niece, who has already read and understood all the Potter books, and is now onto Chronicles of Narnia.
I've been trying to express why my narrative writing lessons felt kind of dead/not useful to students, and this about sums up my feelings lately; thanks for putting it into words!
If you DO feel like dipping your toes in one day, T Kingfisher's Paladin series or Mia Tsai's Bitter Medicine might be more your style, but I'm not sure they're quite representative of what the mega-popular/tiktok algorithm/YA-adjacent series are doing.
As a romance novel fan, you would think I would already be on the romantasy train. Alas, it hasn’t happened despite making a goal in 2024 to try one. I now think “romantasy novels lean towards the doorstop in terms of size” is a big reason why I haven’t. I am in a book club and must read those books (which range from literary fiction to upmarket fiction to commercial fiction). Then I want to read romance novels after reading a heavier book. I simply don’t have time to throw in one of these giant books. Plus I admit to being skeptical of Tik Tok crazes and think behind every wildly popular romantasy novel is a much better one. That feeling that I might pick the wrong giant book leaves me stuck.
I do want to point out another phenomenon happening in romance that is less discussed: historical romance has fallen off a cliff. It’s getting to the point where traditional publishing is no longer publishing many hist rom books.
“Yes, my publisher declined to buy more historical romance from me despite my books earning out. I know of at least five trad historical romance authors who are pivoting. You can look back at Avon over the past five years and see how their historical romance authors have dwindled. It’s still out there but not as robust.”
It’s strange because Bridgerton the show was popular. Both fondly and derogatorily called “bodice rippers”, it’s a sad time for the genre. I still read and enjoy them (they also tend to be around 350 pages or so), especially given the backlist, but I can’t help but wonder what is going on. It might be related to the romantasy phenomenon.
Very interesting. I hadn't thought about how romantasy might now be crowding out historical romance. Where do you think a series like Outlander falls on this continuum? On the one hand, it does have fantastic elements (time travel), but those seem like a contrivance to put the characters the audience is interested in in different eras. They're also not strictly "romance" books like Bridgerton. They're also quite quite long.
I actually read 2 Outlander books a number of years ago. I remember I would read a Part or two and then put it down so I could read my book club book. They’re definitely not easily categorized. The author talks about it here:
I admit to not caring for her comments on romance. It’s a very stigmatized genre despite its success. I should have developed a thicker skin from all the put downs but it does still sting. But ultimately I agree her books aren’t genre (or even sub genre!) romance. Which makes me realize I don’t even know if these big romantasy books are actually romance. I do think the violence and especially sexual violence in the Outlander books would turn off pure romance fans. I read across genres so I enjoyed the two I read. The audiobooks in particular are outstanding.
Super helpful perspective. Like I say, I'm out of my depth with these genres so it's good to hear informed takes. I only know Outlander from the TV series and the violence often seems to be the focus of the stories, which is nothing like a more traditional romance or historical romance. Thanks!
I couldn't agree with LT more: Your description of the inert results that follow traditional writing critiques has helped me better understand the pull of tradition I struggle w/in my own work (as a developmental editor of nonfiction). Thank you! And thank you, too, for More Than Words: My copy arrived by post today, and I'm excited to encounter its energy.
man, i loved this post, & i also love what online writing has done for me so i'm with your romantasy-writing students in that respect, & i've often wished i was into writing fanfic because it genuinely seems like a living medium with a critique ecosystem that turns out writers i actually like (like, not just "they write romantasy & good for them!") BUT...i dont know...like i question the value of letting college classes be about that kind of writing. learning is happening, yes, but fanfiction already has a strong critique syatem where that learning could happen. but having a professor & induction into literature that is genuinely more difficult to get into without a guide (far from impossible, but genuinely harder!) is something that schools have a comparative advantage at
i guess i feel like college classes should involve learning that you couldn't do without the structure of the class & the auctoritas of the professor. maybe for romantasy writers that should mean reading the faerie queene instead of raymond carver, but idk, it's really missing an opportunity to spend a class doing something you could do without a class, when there are so many things it's hard to learn alone
I don't really have the time or space to outline the entire pedagogical design and structure of my intro to fiction writing class, but I don't think you've drawn an accurate inference of what the class entails from this newsletter, which is understandable, since the post does not describe all of the elements of a course.
The students in the class are tasked with trying to write something that is "non-disposable." This is how I put it in the course policies document that we discuss on the first day of class. (The document is structured like an FAQ, which is why it leads with a question.)
"Q: Can we write genre stories for class, you know, Science Fiction, Fantasy, Mystery, Suspense, Romance, etc…?
A: We haven’t figured out how to handle genre fiction in university creative writing classes. In order to punt the problem we say that we’re interested in “literary fiction,” though of course “literary fiction” can be a genre in and of itself.
Cormac McCarthy’s The Road is science fiction, but it’s clearly also literature. Ditto for someone like Philip K. Dick. Patricia Highsmith (The Talented Mr. Ripley) wrote what today would be called “suspense” and is often stocked in the “Mystery” section. She’s one of the greatest writers of all time (IMHO). Contemporary writers like Kelly Link and Aimee Bender and Chris Adrian write what I would call fantasy or supernatural stories and yet they’re published in our finest literary journals. A story you are very likely to read this semester by Stacy Richter called “The Cavemen in the Hedges,” literally has cavemen in the hedges. This is not “real,” but when you read the story, you will see that the injection of the cavemen helps convey something very true about what it is to live in the world.
So, rather than put an outright ban on works that might be labeled genre based on surface features like post-apocalyptic settings or the sudden appearance of avenging angels, let’s say that when I say “non-disposable,” I’m referring to work that seeks in some way to illuminate the human condition in an “original” way, that has an end goal of saying something “true.”
Another way of saying this is that we strive to create “Art.”"
--
It goes on from there to additional discussion of what we mean by art, but the challenge for students is to write something non-disposable regardless of their genre. In discussion, students themselves conclude that fan fiction or other highly derivative works are not going to reach for this goal, so they don't work in those genres, but some do want to try to write an indelible fantasy or science fiction story, so they take a swing at that.
Of course, in the span of one course in one semester it's unlikely that anyone is going to reach the goal of creating something indelible. Heck, it's not in the cards for most of us in a lifetime. But the point is to take the work seriously enough to make that outcome possible.
Is this something that's only possible in a college course? No. But I still think it's worth it to spend some time doing it together.
Hi John, I've never commented before but liked your take on Rebecca Yarros. I read the first inthe series, and frankly, won't waste my time on the rest. I felt it was an amalgamation of Harry Potter, Hunger Games, suddenly turning into 50 Shades of Gray. I'm Glad I didn't make the mistake of recommending the series to my 11 year old niece, who has already read and understood all the Potter books, and is now onto Chronicles of Narnia.
I think your description of the amalgamation of other books probably nails why the series is so popular!
The Night Circus = great romance fantasy
I think that Neverehere also fits into this category
I've been trying to express why my narrative writing lessons felt kind of dead/not useful to students, and this about sums up my feelings lately; thanks for putting it into words!
If you DO feel like dipping your toes in one day, T Kingfisher's Paladin series or Mia Tsai's Bitter Medicine might be more your style, but I'm not sure they're quite representative of what the mega-popular/tiktok algorithm/YA-adjacent series are doing.
As a romance novel fan, you would think I would already be on the romantasy train. Alas, it hasn’t happened despite making a goal in 2024 to try one. I now think “romantasy novels lean towards the doorstop in terms of size” is a big reason why I haven’t. I am in a book club and must read those books (which range from literary fiction to upmarket fiction to commercial fiction). Then I want to read romance novels after reading a heavier book. I simply don’t have time to throw in one of these giant books. Plus I admit to being skeptical of Tik Tok crazes and think behind every wildly popular romantasy novel is a much better one. That feeling that I might pick the wrong giant book leaves me stuck.
I do want to point out another phenomenon happening in romance that is less discussed: historical romance has fallen off a cliff. It’s getting to the point where traditional publishing is no longer publishing many hist rom books.
Some discussion here:
https://www.reddit.com/r/RomanceBooks/s/g14XCTkj9H
Author Harper St. George:
“Yes, my publisher declined to buy more historical romance from me despite my books earning out. I know of at least five trad historical romance authors who are pivoting. You can look back at Avon over the past five years and see how their historical romance authors have dwindled. It’s still out there but not as robust.”
It’s strange because Bridgerton the show was popular. Both fondly and derogatorily called “bodice rippers”, it’s a sad time for the genre. I still read and enjoy them (they also tend to be around 350 pages or so), especially given the backlist, but I can’t help but wonder what is going on. It might be related to the romantasy phenomenon.
Very interesting. I hadn't thought about how romantasy might now be crowding out historical romance. Where do you think a series like Outlander falls on this continuum? On the one hand, it does have fantastic elements (time travel), but those seem like a contrivance to put the characters the audience is interested in in different eras. They're also not strictly "romance" books like Bridgerton. They're also quite quite long.
I actually read 2 Outlander books a number of years ago. I remember I would read a Part or two and then put it down so I could read my book club book. They’re definitely not easily categorized. The author talks about it here:
https://www.vulture.com/2016/06/diana-gabaldon-outlander-isnt-really-a-romance.html
I admit to not caring for her comments on romance. It’s a very stigmatized genre despite its success. I should have developed a thicker skin from all the put downs but it does still sting. But ultimately I agree her books aren’t genre (or even sub genre!) romance. Which makes me realize I don’t even know if these big romantasy books are actually romance. I do think the violence and especially sexual violence in the Outlander books would turn off pure romance fans. I read across genres so I enjoyed the two I read. The audiobooks in particular are outstanding.
Super helpful perspective. Like I say, I'm out of my depth with these genres so it's good to hear informed takes. I only know Outlander from the TV series and the violence often seems to be the focus of the stories, which is nothing like a more traditional romance or historical romance. Thanks!
"The Autopsy Zone" would be a great name for your book on running workshops...
I couldn't agree with LT more: Your description of the inert results that follow traditional writing critiques has helped me better understand the pull of tradition I struggle w/in my own work (as a developmental editor of nonfiction). Thank you! And thank you, too, for More Than Words: My copy arrived by post today, and I'm excited to encounter its energy.
man, i loved this post, & i also love what online writing has done for me so i'm with your romantasy-writing students in that respect, & i've often wished i was into writing fanfic because it genuinely seems like a living medium with a critique ecosystem that turns out writers i actually like (like, not just "they write romantasy & good for them!") BUT...i dont know...like i question the value of letting college classes be about that kind of writing. learning is happening, yes, but fanfiction already has a strong critique syatem where that learning could happen. but having a professor & induction into literature that is genuinely more difficult to get into without a guide (far from impossible, but genuinely harder!) is something that schools have a comparative advantage at
i guess i feel like college classes should involve learning that you couldn't do without the structure of the class & the auctoritas of the professor. maybe for romantasy writers that should mean reading the faerie queene instead of raymond carver, but idk, it's really missing an opportunity to spend a class doing something you could do without a class, when there are so many things it's hard to learn alone
I don't really have the time or space to outline the entire pedagogical design and structure of my intro to fiction writing class, but I don't think you've drawn an accurate inference of what the class entails from this newsletter, which is understandable, since the post does not describe all of the elements of a course.
The students in the class are tasked with trying to write something that is "non-disposable." This is how I put it in the course policies document that we discuss on the first day of class. (The document is structured like an FAQ, which is why it leads with a question.)
"Q: Can we write genre stories for class, you know, Science Fiction, Fantasy, Mystery, Suspense, Romance, etc…?
A: We haven’t figured out how to handle genre fiction in university creative writing classes. In order to punt the problem we say that we’re interested in “literary fiction,” though of course “literary fiction” can be a genre in and of itself.
Cormac McCarthy’s The Road is science fiction, but it’s clearly also literature. Ditto for someone like Philip K. Dick. Patricia Highsmith (The Talented Mr. Ripley) wrote what today would be called “suspense” and is often stocked in the “Mystery” section. She’s one of the greatest writers of all time (IMHO). Contemporary writers like Kelly Link and Aimee Bender and Chris Adrian write what I would call fantasy or supernatural stories and yet they’re published in our finest literary journals. A story you are very likely to read this semester by Stacy Richter called “The Cavemen in the Hedges,” literally has cavemen in the hedges. This is not “real,” but when you read the story, you will see that the injection of the cavemen helps convey something very true about what it is to live in the world.
So, rather than put an outright ban on works that might be labeled genre based on surface features like post-apocalyptic settings or the sudden appearance of avenging angels, let’s say that when I say “non-disposable,” I’m referring to work that seeks in some way to illuminate the human condition in an “original” way, that has an end goal of saying something “true.”
Another way of saying this is that we strive to create “Art.”"
--
It goes on from there to additional discussion of what we mean by art, but the challenge for students is to write something non-disposable regardless of their genre. In discussion, students themselves conclude that fan fiction or other highly derivative works are not going to reach for this goal, so they don't work in those genres, but some do want to try to write an indelible fantasy or science fiction story, so they take a swing at that.
Of course, in the span of one course in one semester it's unlikely that anyone is going to reach the goal of creating something indelible. Heck, it's not in the cards for most of us in a lifetime. But the point is to take the work seriously enough to make that outcome possible.
Is this something that's only possible in a college course? No. But I still think it's worth it to spend some time doing it together.